Some Mics for the Kodak Zi8
I’ve been touting the Zi8 as a low priced tool for “look at me” YouTube videos because it allows the use of an external mic. It’s usually the case that our preferred framing for a shot moves the camera some distance from the subject. This means that the sound recorded by the camera mic is heavily affected by the sound of the room, and that is rarely a good thing for sound quality.
By separating the mic from the camera, I should be able to position the mic for optimum sound while placing the camera for the visual effect I want. Of course, I can do this wihout an audio input on the camera by a technique called parallel recording, that is, recording on a separate audio system of some kind. The familiar clack of the slate at the start of a movie sequence is used to make it easy to synchronize the picture and sound, and this technique works very well for my homebrewed videos as well. Still it’s very tempting to think that recording directly to the camera is an easier way out, with camera audio every take and every edit lining up without any extra effort.
I’ve been interested in the range of options for attaching a mic to the Zi8, and back in December I went on a little mic shopping binge. Between my storage drawer, Ebay, and Sound Professionals I gathered a collection of mics in a range of prices. But I was struck with a glitch in my Zi8 audio, which required several round trips to attempt repair at the East Coast contract repair depot. Eventually Kodak agreed to replace my camera, but by then I was on a lovely trip to Hawai`i.
Test Design
Now that I’m back I’m ready to offer up some test clips. At first I planned to video a number of brief samples of guitar and vocal, which was very troubling to me. I strongly believe that audio sampling should be done with a single performance and carefully volume matched, in order to reduce the number of variables in the sample. As much as we think otherwise, humans just cannot judge subtle (or even not-so-subtle) differences without careful controls. My aha moment came when I realized that I was only testing audio, not video, so I could use a recorded source to get a repeatable performance. Focusing on audio only also allowed me to upload the much smaller audio clips, so the comparison will be quicker and easier.
For level matching I decided to take the easy way out and simply normalize the files. Normalizing raises the peak of a file to a given level, in this case I chose -3 dBFS. I adjusted levels like this so our ears won’t be fooled by level differences, but these samples hide the differences in the real recording you’ll get if you use one of these mics. So I’m including the original sample as well. Remember that I adjusted the sensitivity of the Zi8 for each mic, so the volume levels are affected by that even in the original, un-normalized samples.
I first created a test recording in Reaper, some slack key guitar naturally. I recorded in mono with an Audio Technica AT4050 in cardioid pattern. Then I added a bit of narration. All camera mics I know about, and many accessory mics as well, are omnidirectional. There are plenty of reasons why an omni is a good choice, but real trickery is required to get a good stereo image with omnis. So I threw in a bit of movement in the stereo field to evaluate channel separation. I arranged the narration and the stereo test ahead of the music and adjusted levels.
I placed all the mics very close to my normal listening position and played back the test recording through my normal monitoring chaing – Echo Audiofire 8, Hafler P3000, Dynaudio BM6p. A Radio Shack SPL meter showed 74 db C weighted at the mic position.
As I mentioned, I adjusted the sensitivity of the Zi8 for each mic. In each case I adjusted the sensitivity to the highest level that did not show any red. I label the default sensitivity as 0, lower sensitivity goes from -1 to -5 and higher goes from +1 to +5. I wound up using the whole range in this comparison.
Test Clips
Here’s the reference recording. It won’t get any cleaner than this.
[audio:20100315/ref.mp3]
or download ref.mp3
I used the Zoom H2 as the mic in my first experiments with the Zi8, so I included it in this comparison. It’s also handy because we can record with the H2 and the Zi8 at the same time. Even though the signal in the Zoom was very low and pumped up with a lot of digital gain in the normalization process, it is quite a bit cleaner than the Zi8. I set the Zoom to M Mic Gain because tests have shown that the H setting adds noise. This still resulted in a rather low level, so raising it also raised the noise as well.
[audio:20100315/h2p.mp3]
or download h2p.mp3
Original versions, no normalization:
[audio:20100315/oh2p.mp3]
or download oh2p.mp3
I used the rear mics on the H2 so I could operate the controls on the front of the unit. As a result the stereo left and right are backwards in both the parallel clip and the Zi8 clip. Here’s the output of the H2 headphone jack recorded on the Zi8 with sensitivity set to -3.
[audio:20100315/h2v.mp3]
or download h2v.mp3
Original versions, no normalization:
[audio:20100315/oh2v.mp3]
or download oh2v.mp3
If you’re like me you’ve been fooling with recorders for a while, maybe going back to cassette tapes. Perhaps, like me, you have some kind of little mic in a drawer somewhere. My drawer mic is labeled www.reactivesounds.com but the web site is a dead end now. I bought this to use with my minidisc recorder a few years ago. The mic is omni, no cable (requires a female to male extension), and has been repaired with superglue. I used -2 sensitivity for this mic.
[audio:20100315/drawer.mp3]
or download drawer.mp3
Original versions, no normalization:
[audio:20100315/odrawer.mp3]
or download odrawer.mp3
I’ve used Sound Professionals http://www.soundprofessionals.com/ for these kinds of recording gear for years. I used one of their T-mics for years with my minidisc, but somehow lost it. They still sell a mic with the same model number, SPSM-1, but it doesn’t look much like the mic I remember. I set the Zi8 to -3 sensitivity for this mic.
[audio:20100315/spsm-1.mp3]
or download spsm-1.mp3
Original versions, no normalization:
[audio:20100315/ospsm-1.mp3]
or download ospsm-1.mp3
The SPSM-15 is the least expensive single point stereo mic sold by Sound Professionals. It appears to have a higher low frequency cutoff than the SPSM-1, and/or lower sensitivity. As a result I set the Zi8 sensitivity to -2.
[audio:20100315/spsm-15.mp3]
or download spsm-15.mp3
Original versions, no normalization:
[audio:20100315/ospsm-15.mp3]
or download ospsm-15.mp3
The AudioTechnica AT825 has been a popular single point stereo mic for many years, but was recently discontinued. The replacements are much higher in price, so it might be worth watching for used examples of the AT825 on Ebay or Craigslist. It seemed perfectly matched to the Zi8 and worked well at the default sensitivity setting.
[audio:20100315/at825.mp3]
or download at825.mp3
Original versions, no normalization:
[audio:20100315/oat825.mp3]
or download oat825.mp3
I was impressed with the performance of the AT825. I was very disappointed in the AudioTechnica Pro 24. Although it looks much more impressive than the T-mics from Sound Professionals, it was very low in output, requiring that I set the Zi8 to the maximum +5 sensitivity.
[audio:20100315/atpro24.mp3]
or download atpro24.mp3
Original versions, no normalization:
[audio:20100315/oatpro24.mp3]
or download oatpro24.mp3
Let’s Look at the Video
Let’s finish off with some actual video. Be careful with comparisons, but perhaps there will be some blatant differences we can take away. When I framed the shot to include the whole guitar the camera wound up about 5 feet from the instrument. I adjusted the Zi8 sensitivity for each mic using my normal procedure – the highest setting that did not show any red squares.
I had a little fun with my new Edius Neo 2.5 software putting together a compilation of the mic demonstrations.
All these mics sound better here than in the audio test with the recording, but they still show their basic characteristics. The camera mic picks up a lot more room, as it must at that distance. And since the room is a boxy little thing, the recording sounds small and boxy.
The H2 in this clip is very slightly overdriving the Zi8, to my ears. The slightly dark voice of the H2 comes through as well. The Sound Professionals SPSM-15 does a pretty decent job for very small bucks. I failed to mention in the video that the sensitivity on the Zi8 is down to -3. This means the SPSM-15 is quite sensitive, so it might be a problem if your source is loud. To my ear the AT825 is the winner. I like the clear presentation. I’m sorry I didn’t do a better job of balancing the channels.
I hope these comparisons are useful. I plan to try these mics with a different camera in a future post.
* * * Correction on 12/03/2010 * * *
The mic I keep calling an AT825 is actually and AT822, the unbalanced version. Sorry for the brain fog.
This entry was posted on Thursday, March 18th, 2010 at 9:57 pm and is filed under Audio, Comparisons, Video. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
William said in post # 1,
on January 3rd, 2011 at 5:15 am
Hey Fran,
Thank you!!! It works!!! So stupid that I don’t even know I can adjust the external mic gain on the Zi8…
But may I know if the recording quality of the R-05 would be downgraded when it is used as an external mic?
Thanks!
William
Fran Guidry said in post # 2,
on January 3rd, 2011 at 11:40 am
William, it’s quite possible that the headphone output is not as good as the recording quality, this is a way some manufacturers reduce costs. One of my favorite recorders, the Fostex FR2-LE, has great recording but terrible headphone output.
I also find the Zi8 recording to be less in quality than my Zoom H2, so it’s probably lower in quality than your R-05. This is why I continued to record separately and sync the audio and video in post production. And why I find the Zoom Q3HD so enjoyable, it has the best audio quality I’ve heard from a relatively low cost camera.
Fran
Laserleikkaus said in post # 3,
on January 3rd, 2011 at 4:26 pm
Thanks for good info! Have you found any new mics?
Fran Guidry said in post # 4,
on January 3rd, 2011 at 5:07 pm
Howdy, Laserleikkaus,
My latest mic is one I really like, the Rode NT4. It’s a stereo X/Y mic that uses the caps from the Rode NT5. It can be powered with a 9 volt battery or P48 phantom. It can provide output on either a pair of XLRs or a stereo 1/8″ mini plug. I find the quality to be excellent, and it’s a very convenient mic to setup and use.
Fran
William said in post # 5,
on January 4th, 2011 at 8:24 am
Fran, at first I did want to get a ZOOM Q3HD. It is really convenient! Looks cool as well! But after watching one of your review about the problem of distance, I decided not to buy it. I want to capture my face and my guitar so the Q3 must be placed a bit far from my body. Yet, I got a soft voice and I’m afraid that distance would affect the volume of the video. That’s why…
Anyway, I’m still happy with the Zi8. Your reviews and advice really help me a lot! Thanks!
William
Fran Guidry said in post # 6,
on January 4th, 2011 at 11:21 am
Hi, William,
The problem of framing distance just won’t go away. Like you, I try to get my face in the shot, so I’m always working around the issue of distance as well.
Can we see some of your clips on YouTube or another site?
Fran
William said in post # 7,
on January 5th, 2011 at 3:33 am
Sure. I will post the link here once I have made one. Gotta practice more on my guitar before I can shoot a good take.
Dennis said in post # 8,
on January 7th, 2011 at 1:57 pm
Hey Fran, I got the Zi8 and the SPSM-1 and tried them out last night. I set the cam on a variety of settings and still seemed to get a fairly high noise signature. (ssssssssssssss). Am I possibly missing something? I was recording in 720-30fps, and the mic sitting 18″ in front of the neck/body joint. It did not sound as good as your audio recording of it here. Thanks in advance. 🙂
Fran Guidry said in post # 9,
on January 7th, 2011 at 3:59 pm
Dennis, sorry to hear you’re having noise problems. In my evaluation I note that I turned down the Zi8 External Mic Gain to -3, or three clicks to the left, this is pretty low. And with an omni mic you might get a little closer, say 12″ instead of 18″.
Do you have any other device you can use to test the mic? A cassette or minidisc recorder perhaps? Ideally you’d like to determine if the source of the noise is the mic or the camera.
Fran
Dennis said in post # 10,
on January 8th, 2011 at 9:12 am
Matter of fact I do have an old portastudio that may work. I didn’t think of that. I did note that when I viewed the clip on my TV that I did not notice the hiss as much as with the play-back on the tiny speaker of the Zi8. I will continue to test and thanks for your advice. I will post back here when I get it figured out. 🙂
swisswiss said in post # 11,
on February 1st, 2011 at 7:37 am
Does the Zi8 have specs on bit size and kps? Thanks
swisswiss said in post # 12,
on February 1st, 2011 at 7:40 am
Never mind: another site said Audio always 128 kbps stereo AAC, 48 KHz
Fran Guidry said in post # 13,
on February 1st, 2011 at 9:05 am
Right, 128kbps, 48khz, AAC.
Fran
Joy Sikorski said in post # 14,
on February 20th, 2011 at 12:14 am
Hi Fran,
I like the gentle sound of your guitar playing and appreciate what you did with your mic experiments and the Kodak z18.
I’m hoping you can help me.
I have a Kodak z18 and a Shure SM57. However, I know very little about the technical part of audio recording and need to know how to connect the Shure mic to the Kodak z18. I have xlr cables for the Shure but do not know which adapter I might need and cannot seem to find answers elsewhere.
Do you have any suggestions?
I really appreciate your input.
Joy
Fran Guidry said in post # 15,
on February 20th, 2011 at 8:15 am
Hi, Joy,
I guess the comment has scrolled away, but we did find a cable that is just the ticket for connecting a dynamic mic to the Zi8. It’s the Hosa MIT156 adapter cable. It has the correct connector for the Shure mic, a transformer that adds a bit of voltage gain, and connections to a stereo 1/8″ plug so the signal goes to both sides of the Zi8 input. I found it for sale online at Full Compass at a reasonable price: http://www.fullcompass.com/product/245538.html
Hope this helps,
Fran
Joy Sikorski said in post # 16,
on February 20th, 2011 at 10:00 am
Hi Fran,
Thanks for your quick response.
I had seen this Hosa cable on Amazon last night after I wrote to you. It seems like the same thing but the product ID is different.
Is there a big difference in audio quality between the 2 that warrants the big difference in price?
Also, I’m a little confused about the size of the mic input. The Zi8 is 3.5mm but the one you mentioned says that it is 1/8″.
Again, thanks for your insights and suggestions.
Kindly,
Joy
Fran Guidry said in post # 17,
on February 20th, 2011 at 12:01 pm
Hi, Joy.
3.5mm and 1/8″ are both used to designate the mini-plug and jack system.
The adapter you linked to is similar but has two differences.
First, it has a male XLR, which is the opposite of the one you need to connect to the SM57. This one is intended to plug into a mixing board or preamp.
Second, it lacks the transformer. It may indeed do the job just fine. There are theoretical benefits to using the transformer version – the output from the SM57 is pretty low and the transformer boosts the level in the process of “unbalancing” the connection. While these are desirable features they may not be needed. And low cost transformers are not known for excellent transparency
If you’re interested in keeping costs as low as possible, you can use an adapter with the proper XLR and add a transformer to your chain later if you find that you need more output.
Here’s where it gets a bit complicated. The adapter on Amazon that looks correct, has the correct plugs, is this one: http://www.amazon.com/Hosa-XVS102F-Right-Angle-3-5mm/dp/B0010CV2FO/ref=pd_cp_MI_2
But the description indicates that this is intended as a stereo mic cable, not a mono to stereo adapter. So the wiring might be wrong for your use. It’s a subtle difference but can lead to a lot of frustration.
Here on the Hosa page for Specialty Mic Cables http://www.hosatech.com/category/338053/Specialty_Microphone_Cables are some adapters with slightly different model numbers but also slightly different descriptions. The XVM cables like these: http://www.hosatech.com/products/340381/XLR3F_to_Right-angle_3.5_mm_TRS are the ones that I would select. It comes in several lengths and is lower in cost than the transformer model.
Hope this helps.
Fran
Fran
Joy Sikorski said in post # 18,
on February 20th, 2011 at 2:33 pm
Hi Fran,
You’re the best! I’ve learned more from this thread with you than anywhere else!
For instance, I had no idea that I in dealing with a mono mic to stereo plug things needed to match. As I mentioned, I’m not audio engineer at all, so I didn’t catch that. But the way you explained things, including the transformer info, I think I want to go with the original thing you suggested.
It’s too bad that Amazon doesn’t carry it and qualify it for their free shipping over orders of $25 because I have a Amazon gift certificate for that amount and had hoped to use it for this. Ah well.
I am deciding which company to buy it from thought because Pro Audio also carries it for $2 less and can use PayPal for payment. I still have to compare shipping costs, however, and that has to wait until tomorrow because the Pro Audio folks are not available by phone today. Full Compass ships it for $8.95, in case anyone needs to do something similar to what I am doing.
Anyhow, I’ll let you know what I decide so that if anyone else has these questions, they’ll have more info about Pro Audio shipping and payment info too.
Thanks again,
Joy
Joy Sikorski said in post # 19,
on February 22nd, 2011 at 11:23 am
Hi Fran,
A quick note to let you know that I bought the Hosa MIT156 at J&R Electronics, as you suggested.
It was $16.99 plus $2.77 shipping, so under $20 total!
Thanks again for your help. I truly appreciate it!
Joy
Jesse Thompson said in post # 20,
on June 4th, 2011 at 7:54 pm
Thank you for the video re: mikes for ZI8
I have one that is rotten for sound quality, no volume, much less resonance or depth.
I have ordered an ATR6550 and am bidding on an AT875 with XLR, both resonance mikes.
I’m 85, recently got interested in recording some of my old songs—Burl Ives type, folky more or less, old stuff, want decent sound and am so far frustrated.
Thank you for the way you play the guitar. I love it.
I had a Martin D28 for over fifty years, sadly, I sold it a few years ago.
Ah, well.
Thanks again.
Jesse Thompson
josef said in post # 21,
on November 1st, 2011 at 12:45 pm
That video was awesome. Very in–depth info.
But can I use my SM57 with the Zi8?
Fran Guidry said in post # 22,
on November 1st, 2011 at 1:44 pm
You _can_ use the SM57, but the special cable will cost about the same as one of these cheap stereo omni electret mics. See the post above for the specific cable that converts impedance and does the mono to stereo adaptation as well. It’s the Hosa MIT156.
Fran
Sean said in post # 23,
on December 15th, 2011 at 12:38 pm
Hi Fran,
Thanks for all of your great advice and videos. I have just recently purchased the Zoom H2 to compliment my Kodak Zi8 to record some of my own guitar work and some live performances. I recently tried using the Zoom as an external mic to record some of my friends rock concert and I was pretty disappointed with the results as I had to keep the mic gain on the zoom on L and back the Kodak gain all the way down to prevent the Kodak audio from distorting. Going forward i’d like to replace the video audio with the audio captured on the Zoom as you suggest in many of your replies. Is there inexpensive or free software that will allow me to line the audio up and replace it? I tried using the Kodak software that came with the Zi8, but it only allows you to insert an audio file and doesn’t let you line the audio up.
Thanks again for all the great material!
Sean
Fran Guidry said in post # 24,
on December 15th, 2011 at 1:52 pm
Sean, I have a couple of blog posts in here about using REAPER audio editing software to merge video and separately recorded audio. It’s a bit techie but quite effective and very low cost.
Sony Vegas is another commonly used tool for this job, available in some low cost versions.
I also did a blog post on using AVIdemux for syncing, but it’s even more techie than using REAPER.
Hope this helps,
Fran
Edward Hamlin said in post # 25,
on December 7th, 2016 at 12:07 pm
Hi Fran – I realize this is an old thread but was just digging into the zi8 again, planning to record Brian Truesby (usb_chord on the AGF) on a 1935 Martin he’s got his hands on. In the past I used the H2->zi8 setup and it’s ok, but what I’d most like is to use my good mikes through my good pre. Is there any problem with taking a line out signal off the pre and using an adapter to step down to the mini input jack on the zi8?
Fran Guidry said in post # 26,
on December 7th, 2016 at 1:03 pm
It might be a little tweaky to get the levels right using line out, but I can’t think of any reason it wouldn’t work. I don’t remember if you can turn off the plug-in power on the Zi8 but if you can find a setting for that I would use it.
Fran
Edward Hamlin said in post # 27,
on December 7th, 2016 at 2:55 pm
Thanks! I’ll give it a shot and see if the zi8 smokes out. 😉
Fran Guidry said in post # 28,
on December 7th, 2016 at 5:41 pm
I would say there’s no risk to the Zi8. My minor concern would be a bad interaction between the plug-in power on the Zi8 mic input and the line out ports on your preamp/interface. I’ve done similar hookups in the past without issue, though.
Fran